Dangerously close to justifying genocide

[endymion]

I say a lot of nasty things about Republicans, Bush, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft. I wanted to clarify exactly what it is that I am worried about.

The Serbs had a problem with Muslims, specifically Albanians. One of the many reasons for the animosity was an Albanian Muslim penchant for terrorist strikes against Serbs. Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri's brother was operating an al Qaeda affiliated terrorist training camp in the Kosovo town of Ropotovo as late as October of 2001, as one example of what the Serbs were afraid of. The foreign terrorists have now mostly relocated from Kosovo to Chechnya and today they are actively killing as many Russians as they possibly can by sending suicide bombers into downtown Moscow. The Serbian solution to the terrorist problem was that they proceeded to demonize ethnic Albanians. They considered Albanians to be less than human, and fair targets for rape or murder. Their ultimate solution to the problem was to occupy Kosovo, cripple the Albanian population by displacing them from their homes, killing their religious leaders, raping their women, and executing the ones that they thought were a potential threat. Millions of ethnic Albanians were displaced from their homes by force. This was in the name of fighting terrorism.

In Iraq we play by pretty much the same rules. The only thing that we haven’t done (yet) is the mass rape, mass grave thing. Are we somehow immune to the forces that led the Serbs to justify genocide? Are we somehow inherently stronger than them, and not susceptible to the same errors in human judgment that led the Serbs to find a rationalization for murder? Why, because God is on our side? The Serbs thought so too, part of the problem. Osama bin Laden thinks that God is on his side as well.

In Israel it is considered acceptable to destroy the homes of suspected terrorists with giant military bulldozers, with no due process. Exterminating suspected terrorists with hellfire missiles without due process is also considered justified. If a few random civilians gets wiped out in the process, hey, no problem. Millions of Palestinians have lived in refugee camps for decades after being displaced from their homes by force. The US supports these actions.

So we got attacked. Our response has been to occupy entire countries, randomly kill both 'suspected terrorists' and whatever civilians happen to live nearby, and detain prisoners with no due process. Our leaders have used our nationalistic fear response from 9/11 to pass the Patriot Act, severely limiting our civil liberties. Now our president wants to make the first ever change to the US constitution that denies rights to a specific group of people. We are dangerously close to finding 'legitimate' justifications for full-on genocide.

THAT is why I'm upset. It isn't (just) because Bush is an idiot. It isn't (just) because he's a documented liar. It isn't (just) because he uses his power to swing business to his friends. It isn't (just) because he uses the men and women of our armed forces and my tax dollars to assassinate personal enemies. It's because 9/11 caused us to lose our moral compass. We are one single mass grave away from the atrocities committed by Hitler.

In Germany in 1933, that country's leadership used the same sort of blind nationalistic chauvinism that we have in the US today to pass a law called the "Enabling Act". Note that 1933 was WAY before WWII. The justification at the time was a perceived threat from communists. The German nationalists managed to frighten the German people into thinking that there was an "imminent threat" (yes, they used the same quote that Bush used to justify caputuring the guy who threatened to kill his dad) that needed to be dealt with aggressively by a proactive, authoritarian government. The Enabling Act gave Hitler the power to create a compound called Dachau, where he imprisoned political opponents ("communists") without due process. Dachau became a death camp a decade later. We now have the Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay. Bush wants to try Guantanamo detainees in private without international observers, convict them without a jury, and execute them on the spot at Guantanamo. The similarities are too obvious to ignore. We are on a slippery slope toward finding a thin rationalization that justifies genocide and THAT is why I am upset.

In 1933, the Germans had no idea what they were voting for when they passed the Enabling Act. Occupying Poland initially seemed like a great idea too. The Germans have plausible deniability in saying that they didn't realize what was happening until it was too late. We are not that stupid today. We have seen what happens when a country goes down this slope. We have no way of excusing ourselves from responsibility for what happens if we don't put a stop to this immediately. We already have the blood of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians on our hands. Far more than 3000.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me — and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

— Pastor Martin Niemöller

[guyman1966]

To compare Bush to Hitler is outrageous, irresponsible and offensive. Its revisionists like you who make this world more dangerous. You read a pamphlet on the internet and all of a sudden you are an expert on history. Go to a reputable college and learn something before you post this drivel.

[Apotheosis]

To compare Bush to Hitler is outrageous, irresponsible and offensive. *Its revisionists like you who make this world more dangerous. *You read a pamphlet on the internet and all of a sudden you are an expert on history. *Go to a reputable college and learn something before you post this drivel.

Not that I agree with everything he said....but if you're going to dispute what he's saying, back it up. Convince him that Bush is a good president. And Tech is not making this world a more dangerous place, that's ridiculous.

Oh, and I don't think you know if he went to a reputable college or not.

[endymion]

Nazi leader Herman Goering once remarked that it was easy to lead people into war, regardless of whether they resided within “a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.” All that was required, Goering argued, is for their government to “tell them they are being attacked, and [then] denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger.”

[MRMATAS2277]

: : :

these comparisons become quite old VERY quickly....

[guyman1966]

Not that I agree with everything he said....but if you're going to dispute what he's saying, back it up. *Convince him that Bush is a good president. *And Tech is not making this world a more dangerous place, that's ridiculous. *

Oh, and I don't think you know if he went to a reputable college or not.

I like Bush - and the president also... But I'm not going to say he is a "great" president. He's doing OK. As far as backing up anything - Tech posted a ton of shit - that if I had time - I'd do it point by point. But for someone to compare a bunch of people being held in Cuba because they have fought US forces and promised to kill Americans is different that Germans. No country attacked Germany - no group threatened to destroy their way of life - NO GERMANS got killed post WWI and Pre WWII -

The US was attacked. Americans Died. A group has promised to destroy our way of life - Did the Jews attack the Nazis?

[endymion]

It was the vague threat of communism that the Nazis used as a cover story to create the detention camp at Dachau that eventually became a death camp. It's the vague threat of terrorrism that Bush used to justify the Patriot Act and the private executions that he wants to start conducting in Guantanamo. Jews had nothing to do with the Enabling Act that led Germany into fascism.

I still don't see anything other than "patriotism" coming from you guys as a justification for our actions. We are right because we are us, they are wrong and deserve to die because they are not us. That thinking is immoral from any position and it's exactly what led to 3000 of us getting wiped out on 9/11. Osama bin Laden is a big believer in the us/them ideology. It should be troubling to us on moral grounds that we are simply using the same justifications for our actions that he uses for his.

I want to see a justification for our actions that puts us on firm moral ground, that can't be used by our opponents. You guys don't have anything. Every justification so far has been something subjective that can easily be used to justify the actions of a Hitler or a Milosovic or a Sherman. Arguments that can be used to justify genocide are immoral.

[guyman1966]

Bash the President all you want.... I just take offense to the nazi stuff.

[endymion]

Yes. You should. I take offense to the Nazi stuff too.

That's my whole point here.

[guyman1966]

Yes. *You should. *I take offense to the Nazi stuff too.

That's my whole point here.

No. I think you are missing the point. Bush may be gone this year and he'll be gone for sure in 5 years. Hitler was there for life.