Kerry shot at vs not shot at, Bush AWOL vs not AWOL

[endymion]

So after all of this debate about exactly how brave Kerry was when earning his Silver Star...

I'm curious why people have managed to completely forget that Bush has been accused of going completely AWOL for an entire year?

Why has nobody claimed Gary Trudeau's prize? Bush never showed up at Dannelly. He didn't "fly fighters". He wasted a bunch of government money during a war on a weasely plan to get out of going to Vietnam and it worked. Nobody remembers him at Dannelly because he was never there.

[swirlundergrounder]

I'm so sick of them talking about the past and not the future. It's making me think that this whole idea that Nader has of having a third party is looking more and more appealing day by day. I want to hear about what these fools are going to do to make the world better and the future brighter and not dwell on what happened in Vietnam. Leave that up to people like Oliver Stone and Francis Ford Coppola....

Bottom line like you said..Kerry was there, Bush was not....

Kerry went as a volunteer, Bush went AWOL....

Kerry is a brave man, Bush is a coward.....

Kerry has some war medals, Bush has military records with lines of black ink over most of the text.....

Who cares about what happened 30 years ago..I want to know more about what going to ahppen in the next 30 years.....!!!!

[saintjohn]

maybe because the "prize" was to have been donated to the uso?

it wasn't much of an incentive, but still, it would've been nice if just one person had come forward. anyway, bush did indeed "fly fighters." here ya go:

The controversy over Bush's service centers on what his critics call "the period in question," that is, the time from May 1972 until May 1973. What is not mentioned as often is that that period was in fact Bush's fifth year in the Guard, one that followed four years of often intense service.

Bush joined in May 1968. He went through six weeks of basic training — a full-time job — at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Tex. Then he underwent 53 weeks of flight training — again, full time — at Moody Air Force Base in Valdosta, Ga. Then he underwent 21 weeks of fighter interceptor training — full time — at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. Counting other, shorter, postings in between, by the end of his training period Bush had served two years on active duty.

Certified to fly the F-102 fighter plane, Bush then began a period of frequent — usually weekly — flying. The F-102 was designed to shoot down other fighter planes, and the missions Bush flew were training flights, mostly over the Gulf of Mexico and often at night, in which pilots took turns being the predator and the prey."If you're going to practice how to shoot down another airplane, then you have to have another airplane up there to work on," recalls retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971. "He'd be the target for the first half of the mission, and then we'd switch."

During that period Bush's superiors gave him consistently high ratings as a pilot. "Lt. Bush is an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer," wrote one in a 1972 evaluation. Another evaluation, in 1971, called Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further." And a third rating, in 1970, said Bush "clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot" and was also "a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership."

All that flying involved quite a bit of work. "Being a pilot is more than just a monthly appearance," says Bob Harmon, a former Guard pilot who was a member of Bush's group in 1971 and 1972. "You cannot maintain your currency by doing just one drill a month. He was flying once or twice a week during that time, from May of 1971 until May of 1972." While the work was certainly not as dangerous as fighting in the jungles of Vietnam, it wasn't exactly safe, either. Harmon remembers a half-dozen Texas Air National Guard fliers who died in accidents over the years, in cluding one during the time Bush was flying. "This was not an endeavor without risk," Harmon notes.

[saintjohn]

and now the juicy stuff:

The records show that Bush kept up his rigorous schedule of flying through the spring of 1972: He was credited for duty on ten days in March of that year, and seven days in April. Then, as Bush began his fifth year of service in the Guard, he appears to have stepped back dramatically. The records indicate that he received no credit in May, June, July, August, and September 1972. In October, he was credited with two days, and in November he was credited with four. There were no days in December, and then six in January 1973. Then there were no days in February and March.

The change was the result of Bush's decision to go to Alabama to work on the Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount. With an obligation to the Guard, Bush asked to perform equivalent service in Alabama. That was not an unusual request, given that members of the Guard, like everyone else, often moved around the country. "It was a common thing," recalls Brigadier General Turnipseed. "If we had had a guy in Houston, he could have made equivalent training with Bush's unit. It was so common that the guy who wrote the letter telling Bush to come didn't even tell me about it."

The president's critics have charged that he did not show up for service — was "AWOL" — in Alabama. Bush says he did serve, and his case is supported by records showing that he was paid and given retirement credit for days of service while he was known to be in Alabama. The records also show that Bush received a dental examination on January 6, 1973, at Dannelly Air National Guard base, home of the 187th (January 6 was one of the days that pay records show Bush receiving credit for service). And while a number of Guard members at the base say they do not remember seeing Bush among the roughly 900 men who served there during that time, another member, a retired lieutenant named John Calhoun, says he remembers seeing Bush at the base several times.

What seems most likely is that Bush was indeed at Dannelly, but there was not very much for a non-flying pilot to do. Flying fighter jets involves constant practice and training; Bush had to know when he left Texas that he would no longer be able to engage in either one very often, which meant that he would essentially leave flying, at least for some substantial period of time. In addition, the 187th could not accommodate another pilot, at least regularly. "He was not going to fly," says Turnipseed. "We didn't have enough airplanes or sorties to handle our own pilots, so we wouldn't have done it for some guy passing through."

On the other hand, showing up for drills was still meeting one's responsibility to the Guard. And, as 1973 went along, the evidence suggests that Bush stepped up his work to make up for the time he had missed earlier. In April of that year, he received credit for two days; in May, he received credit for 14 days; in June, five days; and in July, 19 days. That was the last service Bush performed in the Guard. Later that year, he asked for and received permission to leave the Guard early so he could attend Harvard Business School. He was given an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months, and five days of his original six-year commitment.

source:

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200402180840.asp

[saintjohn]

Originally Posted by techjunkie

Bush never showed up at Dannelly. He didn't "fly fighters".

isn't it pretty to think so?

[endymion]

Okay, so his flight licenses are not missing like I thought they were.

You seem to concur that Bush wasted a bunch of military money and resources in a weasely scheme to get out of going to Vietnam.

And yeah. Sure would have been helpful for me in believing his story if a single person had showed up and claimed to remember him showing up for duty.

So have you heard the one about how Bush may have dropped out of flying when they forced him to take a drug test? Do Bush supporters really want to keep talking about Vietnam?

[JMT]

bc kerry had to pride his campaign on being a decorated vet. he brought it on himself, knowing the past was suspect. self- inflicted wounds and shooting a fleeing kid and animals during 4 months of service.

we've done this 10 times already.

[saintjohn]

tech, i'm surprised that the democrats have been working so hard to "prove" that bush wasn't a fighter pilot. fighter plots, as a group, display many of the characteristics that seem to infuriate the president's critics. bush is confident (or arrogant, depending on one's view), bold (or reckless), and decisive (or impetuous).

kerry's supporters would be wise to embrace the official bush military story, instead of wasting time and energy attacking it. why not ask voters which they would prefer: the brash fighter pilot or the beloved boat captain? both candidates were officers, but only one displayed any credible leadership qualities.

kerry's most notable combat achievement, in my view, has nothing to do with rescuing an army special forces soldier under enemy fire. the fact that he led men in battle, earned the respect of the sailors directly under his command (if not those serving "with" him), and managed to keep his crew safe is what impresses me.

flying an f-102 takes a lot of skill and courage, but it's not an ideal prep course for the presidency. kerry should be reminding voters of that fact every day.

[endymion]

How much did it cost the United States military to send Bush through all of those flight training programs? How much military money did he waste knowing that he was ditching the whole show as soon as he could?

Fast forward a few decades. Kerry registers a symbolic vote against an $87 million spending bill for Iraq, knowing that it will pass anyway, as a political move against Dean. Bush immediately declares that Kerry is 'denying funds to our military', he has been waving that flag ever since. Six days later Bush himself threatened to veto the same bill over whether a portion of it was a loan or a grant. Nobody accuses him of flip-flopping.

So which of these two guys 'denied funds to our troops'? Bush sucked up funds that were intended to go toward training pilots for war, knowing that he was wasting taxpayers' money and willfully denying those resources to real soldiers in his weasely attempt to avoid going to Vietnam and getting shot at.

Then Bush people run around trying to paint Kerry as a coward who would deny support for our military. Come on now, this is the height of hypocrisy. I really recommend that Bush people stop talking about Vietnam entirely. It doesn't make him look good. It makes him look an awful lot like a deserter who wasted a bunch of military money and resources out of cowardice.

And Bob Dole calling Kerry a pussy for leaving Vietnam and becoming active in the anti-war movement after his three Purple Hearts? Puhleese, picking on Kerry's exit from Vietnam just draws yet more attention to Bush just throwing in the towel the second he had a chance to play politics from an air-conditioned office. "Thanks for the millions of dollars worth of training guys, I think I have something else I'd rather be doing now, cya...." Compare that to leading soldiers, saving at least one life, three Purple Hearts and then a dedication to effecting change. Which of these men served his country honorably?

[V. Barbarino]

Oreilly said it best last night..

no one cares....

techs mind is made up thus no reason to ever have a debate with him, as for me, i'm on the fence about who i'm going to vote for and I could care less what these guys did back then, and for bush being the incombent (sp) the public already voted they don't give a fuck about his record.


*for the record, clinton was never in service, and was called a draft dodger, but he's beloved by americans.